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Credo Mutwa Reptilians


Transcript With Roger Elvick
(Date Unknown - Early 1999)
Roger : Sure, Yeah. Oh yeah. See, that's a "Commercial Dishonor" and a commercial dishonor is an equal value of the offer.
            And it is eligible to trade in the marketplace independant of all the rest of it. So you see, you've got the "value" right there to pay the bills with.
Jean: So you are asking them to give you the "value" that the "ticket" represents?
Roger: Right
Jean : By making a deposit.... By debiting it..
Roger: No, No. A Deposit is not a "Certificate", it's a "Certificate of Deposit". You see, you could come in and say "I want to
         deposit something in your checking account", that's a complete different set-up. But your asking for the Bank to
         exchange or trade with you  for a "Certificate of Deposit." Well, you see, that brings on the  "International
         Monetary Fund" for exchange in foreign currency. Because the foreign currency is the public for the private and
         vice-a-versa. It's a Public Policy.
Jean: Okay. So the foreign currency would be Federal Reserve Notes.
Roger: Yeah. But it's still Public Policy. Because the Federal Reserve Note still has to have the value of it regulated by the
         Fed. And they do that in the Money Order. They do that on the re-venue.
Jean: Explain to Dave what the re-Venue is.
Roger : Revenue. You have Venue, and then you have re-Venue.
Dave : What's the difference?
Roger : One of them is...Venue is the Internal Revenue Service corporation, which is regulated by these Black Robes in
         Washington D.C.
Dave : What Black Robes?
Roger : Well, you have 12 of them.
Dave : You mean the Supreme Court?
Roger : Which Supreme Court? Yours? Or Mine? Because that is an inferior court. So those Black Robes represent the
         Internal Revenue Service as a corporation. The IRS is regulated by the Circuit Courts.
Jean : Okay.
Roger : That's the re-Venue. First there's Venue, then there's re-Venue.
Dave : That just means subordinate?
Roger : Well, No. That just means that their bookkeeping is exactly opposite each other.
Dave : One is the Debit side and one is the credit side?
Roger : Yeah. Right.
Dave : Which one's which?
Roger : Yeah. But, you seethere's no such thing as a Public Positive. So you see, if your trying to exchange in public revenue,
         it is all negative, it's all debit.
Jean : Okay.
Roger : So you see, what happens, that is what your "Replevin Bond" is for is, is for twice the value in controversy.
Jean : What's a "Replevin Bond" ?
Roger : That's the reserves that have to be put up to indemnify people in a controversy, for any damages that might occur, -
          by the people that's putting up the Bond.
Dave : So, if I sign a Bond, the State has to put up double the amount?
Roger : It isn't a matter of "the State". If you sign a Bond - the thing is if you get into controversy, like we have some people
         here that were being foreclosed on for their Farm Equipment. They went in and requested the "Order of the Court" be
         released to them immediately. Guess what happened? ..The Judge in the case ordered Farm Credit service to put up a
         "Replevin Bond" of $181,000.00 on a $74,000.00 foreclosure.
Dave : That's double.
Roger : That's more than double, here the State Statutes in that case governed it for 2 1/4 times, I think. Something like that.
Dave : So the judge did what the State Statute said?
Roger : Yeah. He did what the State Statute said.
Dave : What happened?
Roger : Actually the assessed value of the Equipment was like $110,000.00
Jean : He made them (Farm Credit Service) put up 2 1/4 times the value.
Roger : Farm Credit Service had to do it.
Jean : Then what happened?
Roger : Well, the -- that is still in contest here, right now. They got off with the Equipment, but see NOW, we have got the
        Farm Credit Services tied down and the Insurance Company. You see, there is no way that they can pay, because
        they have got to go through YOUR account to do it. So we are just working it out now. So that we can get them into
        the position where we can actually get the money out of them.
Jean : They have to go through your account, you mean they have to debit your account?
Roger : Yeah. They can't get a zero out, ...
Jean : Because of the 2 1/4 indemnification?
Roger : Yeah.
Jean : They have to get your permission in order to debit it then, don't they?
Roger : You have to have an "Agreement in fact", after the fact. In other words they have to turn over possession of all of the
         stuff they took. And they took stuff that they are going to have to pay damages on. So that's why they have to have a
         "Replevin Bond" in there. So that there is enough money in there to cover all these damages.
Jean : So in other words, they came out and siezed this guy's equipment.
Roger : Yup.
Jean : And then they had to put up the 2 1/4 indemnity for the stuff they took?
Roger : Yup, but the Replevin basically just covers the credit and the debit. So, let's say that you get a "Credit" and "Debit"
         and you get a zero. It goes through your account and you zero out the debt. Okay. That still does not provide you
         with any indemnity, so they still have to release the funds to you, so you can buy what you need to recover.
Jean : To replace the equipment.
Roger : Yup.
Jean : In other words, they have to indemnify the amount or the value of the equipment.
Roger : Yeah.
Jean : That's the same thing as debiting your account, isn't it?
Roger : Not exactly, because you see you have to deal with the debit and the credit in form. Money itself, is just form. It is
         the evidence of a transfer of energy which is the fact. Now that you have gotten the two items in there to go into the
         same account and get zeroed out, now you see, they had to release to you, the actual items.
Jean : In other words, what they have to do is either give you the cash value of the property they took, or give you the
         property back.
Roger : That's right. But now, they are going to give more than the property back, because they have had it for some time,
         and there are going to be some damages.
Dave : Value plus interest.
Roger : Yeah, well, it's even more than interest here. It's Spoilage - see? That's what the "State Warrant" is, or the Warranty.
        That's what the Warrant really means. They have tried to get it so it means something else, but it is a warrant for your
        arrest. But you see, a Warrant is only a "Search Warrant". A Warrant is no good without the ORDER for the Warrant.
Jean : And they don't have that, do they?
Roger : No, usually they don't. See, when they arrested me, I asked them, "Do you have an Order for the Warrant?" and he
        said, "Yes we do". Well, when I got into court, we found out that when I asked the person that signed the Warrant for
        my arrest, it wasn't for me at all, it was for my "Straw Man" (corporate fiction name in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS)
        She admitted it right on the stand.
Jean : Explain to David, what you did. How you got out of this whole thing in 15 minutes.
Roger : Well, I had the U.S. Marshals show up at my door, and they said "Mr. Elvick, we have a Warrant for your Arrest".
        And I said "Do you have an Order for the Warrant?"  And he said, "Yes, we do, but it is down at the courthouse". He
        didn't have it with him. And I said, "Okay, let's go". So we go down to the courthouse, they proceed to book me in.
        We go down into the courtroom. I sit down. Somebody walks up behind me, and throws an Order down on the desk
        so I see what the ORDER is , and the Order is a "Request" by the Sr. Probation Officer to seek a Warrant for my
        Arrest, and the District Judge signed it. So That was the Order for the Warrant. So, the next thing is, they proceed to
        swear-in the Probation Officer, and somebody from the Probation Office starts to interogate her about all the reasons
        they ought to send me back to prison, and then the Magistrate turns to me and she said, "Mr. Elvick, do you want to
        examine the Witness? Now remember the word "EXAM".  I said "Yes I do.  I asked her "Would you give your name
        please?" and she gave her name. Now I am the "Holder" of it.
Jean : You are the Holder of it?
Roger : Sure. That makes me the "Holder" of it, right there. She gave me her Name.
Jean : It makes you the "Holder" of what?
Roger : Her Name.
Jean : Okay. What do you mean when you say "Holder"?
Roger : Well, I am the "Holder in Due Course". I am going to get a little intercourse with that.
Dave : So, it is not "Her" name now, it is "Your" name?
Roger : Yeah. That's right. Then I said "Do you have a claim against me?" and she said "No, I don't". Then I said "Do you
         know anyone else that does?" and she said "No, I don't". So I said, "No further questions, I request the ORDER of the
         Court be released to me immediately". And I was on the street in 15 minutes.
Dave : Because she said she didn't know of anyone who had a claim against you?
Roger : That's right. And she didn't have one either.
Jean : When you said "I request the Order of the Court be released to me", what did the judge say?
Roger : The judge called an end to the case and went out and had the ORDER typed up. To be released from the Marshall
        Service immediately, which I was.
Jean : They typed up the "Release" ORDER to release you immediately?
Roger : Yup. And it was a Magistrate, it wasn't a Federal District Judge, it was a Federal Magistrate.
Jean : In other words, what they are trying to do, this is actually Fraud, isn't it?
Dave : They brought a "False Claim".
Roger : Sure. But you see, it is all Fraud. When they tell you, - whenever you've handled any currency or anything, they can
         come on you at any time and say "Yup, this guy commited a fraudulent act here, and this is all counterfeit", because that
         is what it is. It has always been that. It is all counterfeit. Until we can prove otherwise.
Dave : What can we do to rebut that presumption?
Roger : What do we do? We create the fact. You go in and by yourself an outfit like I've been telling you, and that's the way
        to overcome it. We don't care what they do otherwise.
Jean : What do you mean "Buy"? You mean like you purchase a vehicle?
Roger : Yeah. Keep to your own business and don't interfere in somebody else's.
Jean : Then you ask them for a "Firm Offer"?
Roger : When he wants a dowm payment or asks "How are you going to pay for this?"  "Well, I am going to pay cash".
       If he tells you "What do you mean by cash?"..."What do you want to be paid in?" I would tell him or ask him, "What
       do you get paid in here where you work at this car dealership?" He is going to say that he gets a check from his boss.
       And he can cash it at the bank. I'm going to say "Are those kind of funds okay?  Is that the kind of payment you want?"
       And he'll probably say "Yeah". Well, that is exactly what he is going to get. And he doesn't know how close to the real
       truth that is. Because his boss is going to have to write checks to clear all the liens. When he has done that, you say
       "Thank you".
Jean : You mean there are liens on that vehicle?
Roger : Well, he's got to pay off the manufacturer.
Jean : So it's the car dealer that has to pay off that vehicle.
Roger : Your damn right he does.
Jean : In order to pass Title to you?
Roger : But see, what people don't understand is, that corporations spend debt. Okay? It is exactly the opposite for us. We
         spend the assett.
Jean : They are spending the debt?
Roger : Yeah. You see, and when those two come together, you've got a zero, because both are satisfied. The manufactured
         item has now found it's way home to it's owner. Now you see, as soon as you accept it, that corporation has
        everything they need  to go to the "Internal Revenue Service" and get an offset, and close the escrow out.
Jean : In other words, what they have to do is, they have to pay for that property.
Roger : That's right.
Jean : They have to give the value of the property recieved.
Roger : That's right.
Jean : And if they don't do it, you can go and seek criminal process on them for Fraud.
Jean : Do you understand now, Dave?
Dave : Absolutely not. I am thouroughly confused.
Roger : The only way you are going to get it is actually go through and start working your own.
Jean : Well I understand it.
Dave : You ask the guy "Is that the kind of payment you are willing to accept?"
Roger : Roger : No. He can't accept anything. He has made an offer, and you have accepted, and that's it.
Dave : And then you ask him what (the definition of cash), "What do you want for cash -- want to be cash?"
Roger : When he tries to get cute, your going to have to have small talk going, because these guys are going to try and
           qualify you for thier credit. I'm only saying that, if that is starting to confuse you. We won't even talk about it. That
           has nothing really to do with the outcome of this thing.
Jean : What your really telling him to do is, that his corporation has to pay for the vehicle.
Roger : That's right. And if they don't do itthey don't have anything to sell you.
Jean : They can't sell you the vehicle because they don't have Title to it.
Roger : Right. And they have to pay for the vehicle in order to pass Title to you, and that's what you are trying to induce
         them to do, by a "Firm Offer". Here's what they used to do before the ICC came down on them. A while back
         (1992 - ?) when the ICC passed the Regulation T+3, it means that, they used to have about 5 days to settle with the
         Brokerage Houses, had to settle up for their purchases.
Dave : Stock Certificates, you mean?
Roger : Yea. Well, the ICC tightened it up and came out with what they call T Plus 3. You have the day of the trade plus
         3 days, within which to settle up. So from the day the trade was made, they have 3 additional days that they have,
         and they have to have the security paid for.
Jean : Yeah.
Roger : You and I when we go in to buy, we just sign the deal, under the conditions we just talked about, and we say "Well
         then I'm just going to wait-out the 3 days Truth-in-Lending Time. Because I'm going to make sure that you have Title
         to pass to me. The law cannot compel me to pay for it ahead of time. Because then they just use your money and use
         to go and buy Title.
Jean : And what you mean by that is they pay for the vehicle, and have Title.
Roger : Right
Jean : And when you sign that agreement, that passes Title to you, because you have already paid for the vehicle.
Roger : That's right.
Dave : So they've got 3 days from the time you sign the purchase agreement, for them to complete on paying all this what
         they owe to the manufacturer.
Roger : Yup. Three additional days after that day. That's why you want to set your time, because they are accountable to
         you immediately.
Dave : What piece of paper do you get from them that says that they've paid off all these liens?
Roger : Well you've got to get the Contract. Your going to have it in these escrow instructions.
Dave : And that is what's called a "Firm Offer?"
Roger : The Firm Offer, yeah. You are going to make sure. You see, most of your Standard Contracts that I have seen, at
         least the older ones, --see some of the new ones don't have any provisions for any numbers in them. I would get real
         suspicious of a dealer that was using something like that. But the older ones had places in there where the signatories
         had places for their Social Security Numbers or their Federal I.D. Numbers. You want to be sure then that you get a
         Federal I.D. # from that agency that you are buying from and make sure that ALL blanks are filled. It's just normal.
         Just be sure that they've got everything on there, and the right parties there who have the right to "bind" the corporation.
         And once you've got that and then if they don't come across, you can take that to the States Attorney.
Dave : So, after the 3 days go by, and after you've signed this "Agreement to Purchase", with all the financial agreements on
         it, and they have had their 3 days to do their ......
Roger : Right. If they haven't passed Title by then, that's the evidence of the Fraud
Dave : They have to pass Title before the before the 3 days?
Roger : Sure they do. By the end of the 3 days, it is Fraud.
Jean : Because they don't have it to pass.
Roger : Damn Right.
Jean : Okay, I understand what your saying, Okay, - But...
Dave : So they are selling something 3 days before they fully own it, free and clear. And they've got 3 days within which to....
Roger : Yeah. But that's if they are going to give you some problem over it.
Dave : Three days within which they've got to pay off their interest.
Roger : They could let you out of there the same day.
Jean : How do you get them to do the "Firm Offer"?  -- by writing it into the Escrow Agreement?
Roger : Yeah. Yeah. When they say they want a "Down Payment", you agree to it. You see, these guys are trained to where
         if you come up with any kind of Refusal to their "Offer" (Offer to Sell), you see, then it reverses the obligation.
Dave : An escape clause.
Roger : Right. That's what we dealt with all the time we were in prison. These things go on daily in there. This kind of
         relationship. You have to learn how to handle it. That's how they keep you in there, because they keep you trapped
         there with your own remarks. "Anything you say and do can and will be used against you." And that's what the whole
         prison trip is. In the Correction system. Because the correction here is simply the correction of the "National Debt".
Jean : They are collecting money to pay the "National Debt", aren't they?
Roger : Sure they are, - and YOU are the collateral on it, all the time you are there.
Jean : And that fiction is the unliquidation debt, isn't it?
Roger : Yup. Yup.
Jean : I have a U.S. Supreme Court decision, that says that "unliquidated debt" and "creditor" can be the "Res".
Roger : Uh, hum, yep. See you can also ask the District Director of Internal Revenue to file a "NOTICE OF FEDERAL
         TAX LIEN" and wipe out all the other creditors. Then all you have to do is accept the Federal Tax Lien "for value",
         and then you just deal with them.
Jean : Okay, "NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN", on who, the Dealer?
Roger : On Anybody, because the "FEDERAL TAX LIEN" wipes out everybody else. I did it here while I was in Sandstone.
         I had a guy who came up to me. I really didn't know him from the man on the moon. He didn't know anything either.
         He didn't hardly know why he was in prison. He had a $97,000.00 Tax bill that came down on him from the IRS and
         he came to me with it. I really didn't know how he was going to handle it, but i'll tell you one thing. You better Accept
         it. Because, they came with a "10-Day Demand Letter", either 10 days he makes settlement with them, or they are
         going to seek a "Detainer" on him and they were going to extend his prison term. They do it to alot of them in there.
         I've seen alot of that happen. I told him "I really don't know how you are going to pay this thing, but you better get a
         letter off right away, and "Accept the Bill for Value", and we'll see then and figure out how the hell you are going to
         pay it.... So that's what we did. We wrote the letter, and then I told him "Well ask for an extra 90 days". And I know
         they'll accept that. Any time anybody gets these "Internal Revenue" things, and they really don't know what to do, and
         if it's a 10 day left, just write a letter of "Acceptance", and ask for 90 days to effect payment.
Dave : Yeah. And then what do they do?
Roger : Then, you've got to figure it out.
Dave : What is the answer that you figure?
Roger : Well, you figure how you are going to settle with them.
Dave : How do you settle with them after the 90 days?
Roger : You are asking "Broad" questions.
Dave : In other words, you don't know. You don't have an answer.
Roger : Yeah. Right. That's what I told him. I didn't know.
Dave : Well, I'll give you the "Answer", and you can pass it on to the guy and get him out, tomorrow. He needs to file an "In
          Forma Pauperus" Form, that he doesn't own anything, and therefore he can't pay, because he has no money with
          which to pay...and the Court can't order an impossibility.
Roger : You can't do it. If you file a "In Forma Pauperus", you are telling them "I don't have anything to pay with".
Dave : Well, you don't. All you have is debt. You don't have any money, with which to pay any "Claims".
Roger : Well, yeah. But what are you going to do about the things of substance that you really got out of some of that "Debt"?
Dave : But they are estopped because they have "Privity and Knowledge". They are not entitled to file a "Claim".
Roger : I'm not going to get into that, because I don't get on that side of the arguement.
Dave : Oh. Okay..... Your's is different.
Roger : You start that, you know what you do? You identify yourself as a Defendant, and then here, your marked as a Felon.
Dave : No, I don't identify myself as a "Defendant", they try to....
Roger : Oh yes. You've identified yourself as the "Defendant" because you are defending "the cause".
Dave : No. I am challenging the jurisdiction of the Plaintiff. They don't even have "Standing" to approach the Court due to
           Privity and Knowledge.
Roger : Then, our conversation is done.
Jean : Yeah. So, what you do is, you become a part of the controversy, don't you?
Roger : Oh, yeah. The only one who can be a felon here is a "Defendant. The only way you identify yourself is when you
         recognize the "Accuser" (fiction), and get into an arguement with them.
Jean : That's making an "Appearance", isn't it?
Roger : Yep, Yep. So...
Jean : If you "do anything detrimental to the Plaintiff's position", which is what you're doing isn't it, if you make an
Dave : (In Background) By raising estoppel.
Roger : Yeah. Well, see, the guy that makes the offer, is the "Defendant", because when you go into Court, and you just
         stand silent. what do they do...they appoint a "Public Defender", don't they?
Jean : Yeah.
Roger : Well, that's the "Defendant" then, isn't it?
Jean : The "Public Defender" is??
Roger : Damn Right.
Dave : If you accept it?
Roger : No. No. It doesn't have anything to do with what you are doing. Because that's the Public Defender who is the
          Bailee who they hand over the "Investment Portfolio" or the "Warehouse Receipt", and he's holding the "Warehouse
          Receipt" on you.
Jean : Okay.
Roger : And then they just railroad you off to prison.
Dave : He is not the YOU defender, he is the Public's Defender.
Roger : Damn right he is. He is the "Defendant". But for you or I, I remain an "Offender". Because if I am an "Offender", I
          can't even by definition be labeled as a "Defender", or as a "Defendant".
Jean : Okay. He's a Bailee, and he's holding the "Warehouse Receipt"?
Roger : Yep, - Let's get back to where we were, we were getting into things that we shouldn't have. We lose sight of what
          I am trying to tell you. When I told this guy, to go ahead, and that he had to "Accept" that amount of debt, that IRS
          had claimed on him. Basically, it had to do with the Mortgage on his house, $97,000.00. So we wrote the letter, and
          told them we Accept the accounting, but we needed an extra 90 days to effect payment. Well, four days later, he gets
          a call from the IRS at his work, and he get's on the phone, and I told him, I warned him about these little capers that
          they use, so they can try and get him in another agreement, so they can set aside the agreement that they have just
          bound him to. Okay?
Jean : Okay
Roger : So I told him, you don't need to get into any arguements with them or anything, just have a congenial discussion
         with them, and then before you end the discussion. you tell them, "all those things that you say are well and good, but
         we will talk about doing something about those, after you complete what I told you to do in my letter". You always fall
         back on your "paperwork".
Jean : Okay
Roger : That's what he did. He was so naive, he didn't know any thing, to he followed what I told him to the " T ". That's why
        it was so nice working with him. He didn't second guess me on anything. He just did it. So now, he comes and tells me
        about this at the end of the day. Well, now, that indicates that they are serious. "Do you have anything else laying
        around out there? Because you won this round...."  The only thing was "Child Support" that they were hounding him for.
        $23,000.00 in Child Support. Well I said, "We can look for them to be coming through the door any day now that
        because they failed in this attempt. No, they are going to take whatever they have got left to use it on you. Well,
        exactly 3 days later, he gets a "Certified Mail" letter in the mail from Social Services, demanding money, for Child
        Support. And it was a 10 Day letter again. So, he asks me, "What are we going to do about this?"  We're going to do
        the same thing we did with the last one, except after we got to talking about it, --We've got the Internal Revenue
        Service Claim, and I said we are accepting the obligation to pay this thing. That we will invite them to take the amount
        of payment out of the Federal Tex Refund which was that $97,000.00 Bill that he got. Because when he "Accepted it
        for Value" he became the "Holder" of it.
Jean : So he can pay them out of the $97,000.00
Roger : You bet he can. And we did just exactly that. But I told him, "I think we will do this a little different". Because we
        had our hands on some Missouri UCC-1 Financing Statement forms.
Jean : That's a Lien form, isn't it?
Roger : Well, it is not a lien, it's a financing statement.
Jean : It's a "Security Agreement".
Roger : Yeah. So we took that, and we attached the letter to it, and we did the accounting on it, and we instructed the
        Social Services to take their money out of that particular lien.
Jean : Did you send them a copy of the lien?
Roger : Yeah. Well, it wasn't a lien. It was a Bill from Internal Revenue. It was a NOTICE OF INTENT TO LEVY. It
        wasn't a full fledged NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN, at that point.
Dave : It wasn't "perfected" yet.
Roger : Well, No. But it did here, real soon, I'll tell you. So then I decided, we are not going to put any money into this thing,
        and it's hard to raise up the money in Prison for these filing fees, so we sent it in to the "Secretary of State" for Missouri,
        with instructions to the filing office, - to please file the UCC-1 statement lewtters that were attached to the
        STATEMENT, with the letter to Social Services telling them that he had "Accepted the accounting", the obligation to
        pay, and if they would please take the amount owed from the "Tax Refund", as done in the accounting here that was
        attached in the Federal Bill.
Jean :  That's money that you have already paid through the "Birth Certificate" because they borrowed that money on your
Roger : Right. See, when he borrowed the money, he paid the money out for the property. So that was repayment of the loan.
Jean : So he just used the , in other words, that was his loan money.
Roger : Yup. Yup.
Jean : The Tax Lien that the IRS had on him, was HIS loan money that the government had borrowed. So he just used that -
          because that money was his. So he used it to pay off the back Child Support?
Roger : Yeah. So we told the "Secretary of State" to please file this STATEMENT, and then after filing, please send it on to
          Social Services, for payment of the filing fees.
Jean : You instructed the "Secretary of State" to do that? .....(Yeah) Okay.
Roger : And the "Secretary of State" did it, we told him after payment of the fees, please provide us with a copy of the
          receipt. They sent it to us. We got a receipt that it was paid. Nineteen dollars, by Social Services, for the filing of that
          thing. So then we knew we were home free. We never got an accounting sheet in dollars and cents back from them,
          but we got an acknowledgement back from them to where it showed that they had zeroed out his account.
Jean : In other words, when you go in there and convert it, what you are saying is, is that you don't have that money in your
         account. Isn't that what you are doing in effect? You are ruining your "Credit"?
Roger : Well, it could be.
Jean: What you are saying is you do not have that accounting, you are not a "Preferred Stock", and you don't have that
         money. In other words, when you become adversarial , what you do is, you discharge the account money that you
         have to pay that account to zero that account.
Roger : We don't discharge it, we require that they discharge it. See, we are charging them.
Jean : In other words, when you don't consent to it, what you are admitting is that you don't have that money in your account.
Roger : No. But, what we are doing is, we are binding the "Fiduciaries" and saying "You people work for me, pay-up that
         account here, that's my money".
Jean : You are my Trustee, so do your fiduciary duty and discharge the obligation.
Roger : That's right. That's right. That's what we did.
Jean : Oh. Very simple.
Roger : So you see, what they actually did was...
Jean : We've been on the defense, for so long that we don't realize this. do we?
Roger : Yeah. I know. That's why you can't start to argue, because then you go on the defense, and you are identified as the
           "Defendant" and you are finished, right there. Right on the spot. All you have to do is recognize that "fictional accuser",
           and you've corrupted the account, right there.
Jean : They can't debit the account then, can they?
Roger : No. Because you're dealing here with electronic transfer. As soon as you touch a couple of charged wires, BANG.
           You know what happens to a computer...
Jean : Shorts out.
Roger : Damn right. That's Exactly what happens. That's why you can't allow any of those "corruptions" to occur.
Jean : I am beginning to understand. When you ask the guy for a "Firm Offer, do you ask him to write that into the Contract?
Roger : You don't have to. I suppose, if there is a question, and you're dealing with a salesman who doesn't understand
          exactly what you are doing, you could telll him, "you wouldn't mind if I write it into the escrow instructions in the
          Contract, would you?" This is something that maybe only the accountant would maybe understand.
Jean : Does the Salesman know what you mean by that?
Roger : Probably not. I don't know if they have ever been confronted with it.
Jean : What will he do? Will he go back and ask his attorneys about it?
Roger : He'll get somebody from the back room, from the agency.
Jean : So you give them three days to give you a "Firm Offer" which means they have to go pay off the liens on the
          automobile, so they can pass Title to you.
Roger : That's right.
Jean : And if they don't do that within three days, they committed a Breach of Trust?
Roger : Then you go to the State's Attorney, I've got a Ford Dealer on the hook just like that ...right now.
Jean : I understand exactly what you're saying. You can go to the IRS and get a "NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN"
         on the value of the Contract, can't you?
Roger : You could request the District Director file a "Notice of Federal Tax Lien". You see, we got this stuff confirmed that
          Social Services had accepted payment - Er, they can't accept here, they "took payment" from us here, because we
          "Accepted For Value".
Jean : Which is for $23,000.00, right?
Roger : Well, that's what we thought it was. But it wasn't that much. It turned out that it wasn't. They never actually gave us
          any dollars and cents accounting. They just came in and showed his account was zeroed out, and they issued another
          account number. Now this is very interesting. This here told us quite a lot. Because they opened a new account
          number for him, and then they split his account, because his ex-wife was on it with him. She still maintained the number
          that they had given her before. So that's all we could see in the accounting, because they were showing a balace of
Jean : You mean she maintained her account number?
Roger : Right. But he didn't. He got a new number. I didn't even know this at the time. I found out that she had a previous
          marriage, that she had another daughter. There were two girls, see? Only one of the girls was his. Come to find out,
          only one of them he was even liable for. And they had been billing him for the whole $23,000.00 to start with.
Dave : For both daughters.
Roger : Right. But when he actually did this, they had to split the account, and we found out, only $7,400.00 was taken out.
Jean : So, what they did was, they paid off his child support for the person who was his daughter, and the other was for his
          wife who was married to somebody else?
Roger : She wasn't married to anybody else, she had a (garbled).
Dave : But they set it up in an account?
Roger : They set it up in a seperate account.
Dave : Which was a credit for him, instead of being a debit. He had pre-paid. He had pre-paid the second daughter's
Roger : Right.
Jean : So, what they did was, they subtracted it from his "Federal Tax Lien", er- from the Tax Bill?
Dave : They took the excess from the Tax Lien and paid off his claim, and gave him a credit on the other daughter.
Roger : Yeah. Because he had gotton a Bill for $97,000.00 and so he still didn't have the ....
Dave : (In background) - It's like Barnum and Bailey".
Roger : But we knew they had zeroed out his account, so what happened - this was the first time he had ever heard, in
            three and a half years he had been in Prison, he heard from any member of his family. He had no idea where they
            were or what was up. She wrote to him because she was so relieved that he had taken some of that burden off her.
Dave : She thanked him.
Roger : Yeah. So he got a report on the condition of the kids, and then I had him write to her and ask about the actual
           accounting and how much that was really paid. She told him. So then we knew from that, what it had meant. Then
           you see, the new account number that they had given him, shortly again, for $300.00 bucks. And pretty soon, within
           two weeks, he got another one for another $300.00, so he had $600.00 he had to pay. See that new number that
           they had given him. She was still drawing payments, and they were paying $300.00 a month, and they were giving him
           the Bill. So we handled that the same way. We just "Accepted For Value" and then they came back on him and
           stated that he had to report to the Clerk of the Court that imposed the judgement, that the payment had been made.
           So he asked me "How are we going to do that?" - That's easy, - you just take care of that NOTICE we got from
           Social Services, of settlement of this obligation. We just signed it, and we kept copies, and we sent it in to the Court,
           and that's the last we ever heard of it. So you see then, we didn't have to even take it out of anything else, because
           "Accepting The Bill" (For Value) was an offset right in itself.
Jean : So, what you are doing is acknowledging that that is part of your account, - by your "acceptance" ?
Roger : That's right. NOW, you see, you've got Venue and re-Venue. And NOW you see, it's eligible to be discharged
           dollar-for-dollar in Public Policy. Public Policy, at that point, supercedes the Public Law.
Jean : Which is "H.J.R. 192".
Roger : Which is H.J.R. 192. Right.
Jean : In other words, HJR 192 it is against Public Policy to pay on a contract that calls for payment in Gold and Silver.
Roger : That's right, because they can't create a piece of paper, and exchange it for substance. Because that's "Theft"....
Jean : So you can discharge it, because it calls for payment in money, doesn't it?
Roger : No, you don't "discharge" it, - they do.
Jean : They Discharge it?
Roger : Yeah, - See, you and I are charging them to "discharge".
Jean : So, what you do is, write on the when he got that "Levy", he wrote on it and sent it back saying "Accepted For
Roger : Yeah. Yeah.
Jean : Just like you do on the "Ticket".
Roger : Yeah.....Yeah. Same thing.
Jean : And then you put down, "Exempt From Levy". Do you put your "Employer Number".....
Roger : Yeah. Yeah. You know, right now, I would just stick with the "Acceptance for Value, because that "Acceptance" is
          so broad, that it's ....You start doing the other things, and there are some limiting factors to it, - and we don't even
          want to get into those now. We'll be on the phone here for another week.
Jean : So, what do you do, just "Accept it for Value" ?
Roger : Sure, "Accept it for Value" and request that they adjust your account. Because when you "Accept for Value", you
         are accepting a "Deficiency", so you see, they have given you the "NOTICE OF DEFICIENCY" and you have
         "Accepted" it, now as a Tax matter, is that they must give you the "NOTICE OF ADJUSTMENT".
Jean : Okay.
Roger : So, you just request that they"adjust the account in fact".
Jean : What they do is take the "debit" and "credit" it.
Roger : Yeah. And it zeroes out.
Dave : But they don't give you the NOTICE, unless you ask them to give you the NOTICE?
Roger : Right. Yeah. Because you see, they are dealing with you as a fiction, as well. - because they are using your Tax
           Exemption to operate with. Until you decide you are going to use it.
Jean : And your Tax Exemption is your "Preferred Stock", isn't it?
Roger : That's right...Not only that, but it is "Priority", it has the "Priority" over everything else.
Jean : "Preferred Stock" pre-empts "Common Stock".
Roger : Right. There you go. See, "Common Stock" is "Common Law". That's why you've got to stay away from "Common
          Law", because Common Law operates on "Execution of Law". So you see, the Contract has to die before anybody
          can get paid.
Jean : In other words, the Contract has to be zeroed?
Roger : Yeah.
Dave : Everything they do is in fiction, - in equity.
Roger : But, you see, we are dealing with a Contract that we raised from the dead again. Okay...we have our "advocate" that
          has paid the debt, now we want our property.
Jean : Okay. so, do we write that....
Roger : And release the item to me, immediately. Adjust the account error and release the item to me immediately.
Jean : But you send it back to them, and they send you the "NOTICE".
Roger : Yeah. well, they might and they might not. There's alot of ways, they do everything in the book to try and weasel out
          of it. But at least, once you make that transition, then you've got to start your own strategy, on how you are going to
          deal with it.
Jean : My people perish for lack of knowledge. Because they have rejected knowledge, I have rejected them. That's the
          "Christ Consciousness", isn't it?
Roger : That's right. Yep.
Jean : So, it really doesn't make any difference where you saw the "Ad"?
Roger : It doesn't make any difference where you found it. You chose it, and accepted it.
Dave : Hey Roger, can I take this conversation, which you authorized me to tape record, and transcribe it into writing, and
           mail you a copy for corrections? We are trying to learn here.
Roger : Well, I'm not going to correct it, but you can take it and use it how you think... - there is a reason for that.
Dave : We want to learn. If I transcribe something wrong...
Roger : I know that. But you see, there is a reson for this. Because I don't want anybody out here representing/concluding
           things that I've said. That's doing a disservice to them. Then I'm accountable to them directly.
Dave : So, I should not bother sending you a copy?
Roger : You can send me a copy, that's fine. I am just not going to correct it.
Dave : Oh, I can. Okay, then I will. Fine. I just don't want to do something without permission.
Roger : We put this information out here just for the reasons we are doing it, to examine these matters. I don't mind that.
            But you see, there are other connotations. If it's going to be represented for somebody to say "This is all correct".
            No. This is my "opinion". And other people, when they take this, they can't go and say,  Mr. Elvick said this, and
            this is the reason I'm doing it. He better not do it for that reason, or he's going to find himself in a lot of trouble.
            People have got to learn to make decisions for themselves.
Dave : So, continually make the reservation on both our parts that we do not give or sell legal advice. .
Roger : Yeah. In the respect to help anybody, - that's fine.
Dave : Then we are both insulated.
Roger : We don't want to pass it off as advice, to where an attorney is trying to...
Jean : Do you know what the "body of Christ" is?
Roger : Acceptance
Jean : Yeah. It's the mind.
Roger : Yeah.
Dave : So, the meeting of the minds is "Acceptance", - that is the "Body of Christ".
Roger : Do you remember what Pontius Pilot said? - "What is Truth?"
Jean : Christ said, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light.
Roger : Well, that is the "Body of Christ" - the Truth. And that's what we, when we have the "Acceptance", , that falls under
          the "Truth-in-Lending", doesn't it? And that;s not "Wholesale", that's the "Retail".
Jean : That means they have to tell the Truth, doesn't it?
Roger : That's right. And they have got to pay all the bills, ALL of them.
Dave : Gee. They might even have to obey their own International Law Merchant, or U.C.C., where it says "Good Faith",
           and they might have to give us "Written NOTICE". Won't that be a shock - if they obey their own Code. And
           discontinue the concealment, fraudulent concealment.
Jean : We've got a guy in Prison right now, his name is Ed McCabe, and he hasn't done any acceptance. He hasn't made an
          "Appearance". He has not given them his Name yet. They had a Trial, a Mock trial, and he did not participate, but
          they did appoint a "Public Defender".
Roger : You can't win by "Standing Silent" anymore. You probably could in some cases prior to 1987, but after they closed
          the Savings and Loans, they primed the account, to where they use "circumstancial evidence", Assumptions. So now
          they can assume you to be the "Defendant". So, the only way you can get rid of those "Assumptions" is to create "the
          Fact" or to use a "Fact". The only way you can get a fact in those kind of proceedings is, both Parties have to agree
          to it. So that's why, as soon as something comes out of their mouth you accept it. Because now, you are both agreed
          that he said that, right?
Jean : Okay.
Roger : Okay, well now YOU are the "Holder in Due Course". Now you're going to give them a little "intercourse".
Dave : (In Background) What's their name, they gave you their name. Now You hold their Name, you are in possession.
Jean : Now you can ask them what their name is?
Roger : Yeah. What is your name? Because you are the Examiner, now. You see, that's what will happen if they take you to
          an arraignment.
Jean : They took him to arraignment. Did they enter a plea for him?
Roger : They do that. They enter a plea for you. If he's beyond the preliminaries, whatever he does, - if he get's into the
          sentencing. Whatever you do here, when he says "Will the Defendant please rise?" At the sentencing, he better not rise.
Dave : (In background) He never enters a plea, the Judge enters it for him.
Roger : He better tell the "Public Defender", - "You rise buddy. You're the Defendant. You rise. Get up there."
Jean : So, what they do is, substitute the Defendant.
Roger : Yeah, yeah. I know a guy here in California, and they were not going to give him a bond to bond him out...
Dave : That's involuntary servitude, and Kidnapping, isn't it?
Roger : Yeah, but how are you going to get that in there? They have to do it, and you have to "Accept" it for value.
Jean : They wouldn't give him a Bond?
Dave : They entered a Plea for him?
Roger : Frank Stamos was his name. They entered a plea for him. He accepted the actions every time, but he did it, in
          writing, but any time they did it in open Court, and questioned him, he said "What is your Name? Do you have a claim
          against me?" And other than that, he just buttoned his lip. Buttoned up tight. They actually held him overnight. But there
          is a 72 hour period under the "Truth-in-Lending" that they have, which is the Delay. When you ask for relief, you ask
          for immediate relief.
Jean : They have to "deliver the Body", they have to make the "Firm Offer"
Roger : Yeah. But, there's 72 hours, and you know what they do with the 72 hours? They've got you, and the account in fact,
          and they have to start covering their Hedges, because there's a "call" in to "the floor" of the "World Trade Center", and
          they've got to put up their "Hedge Funds", and they've got to take this through your account, otherwise, they can't get
Jean : And the only way they can take it through your account is to get you to "consent"?
Roger : Right. So, if there's a good chance that they are not going to prevail, boy is there ever a scramble. Because if that
          "Hedge Fund" ever, if they haven't got that money in there, and the end of that 72 hours comes along....
Jean : They're in "Default".
Roger : Right. But the U.S. Marshals will be on the way looking for the collateral of that "Hedge Fund" within 5 minutes.
Jean : The "Hedge Fund" is what? The collateral that they put up for the amount of the Bond?
Roger : Yeah.

Cut in Transcript

Roger : Yeah...But once you "Accept" the "rejection" you...
Jean : You know what you are doing Roger? Without realizing it - you are exercising your  right-brain, right hemisphere,
which is the Warneke area. That's the metaphysical non-linear side of the brain, that knows everything, and what is
does, is it dictates - see we were all Bi-Cameral minded. We the white people have the nerve plexus in the brain to
recieve auditory commands from the right-hemisphere.
Dave : We called him to learn from him, let's not get off point.
Roger : I have a scientific documentation of that. Julien James wrote a book on it called "The Origin of Consciousness and
the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind". Consciousness is the metaphore that describes the relationship between the
right and left hemispheres of the brain.
Dave : We have kept him on the phone long enough. He might have other things to do. We sure appreciate it Roger...Thank
Roger : Hang on just one second. I've got to tell you the rest of it. As soon as we got the payment confirmed from Social
Services, we got another confirmation in the mail 7 days later. We got the NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN for
$90,000.00 bucks.
Jean : They sent it back to you?
Roger : Well, no. We got the Tax Lien. They adjusted it, because the first Bill was $97,400.00. Well, they took the
$7,400.00 out of it, and then they gave us the NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN for the balance. So, I just told
Daryl, "You take this out now and but yourself a house or whatever, and when you do, just surrender the "Tax Lien"
as a payment for it. Just use up the money. Because it was drawing interest to him too. He's the "Taxpayer" on it. But
if you read that thing closely, you'll see it says FEDERAL TAX LIENS are for the benefit of the government. But in
that case, the "Real" person is the government "in fact". The interesting thing about it is, is that it confesses in there that
the property "belongs to the Taxpayer", or that it is the Taxpayer's property that is being liened. So, as long as they
named you as the "Taxpayer", they are liening your end, and they've got first grab here, they wipe out everybody else
who has a claim on you. So, if you take that and just "Accept that for Value", it's easier to move there, than it is for a
lot of these people who don't know what the hell's going on.
Jean : Believe me, there's alot of them. So, that's actually what your doing with the "Firm Offer", isn't it? When you state that
you want a "Firm Offer" what you are asking them to do is "Accept the Contract for Value"?
Roger : That's right.
Jean : - to debit your account?
Roger : (garbled / overtalked) with negative paper, - see, a "liability" to a corporation - is their "Assett".
Jean : So, what your asking them to do, is make their "Liability" your "Assett". 
Roger : That's right! And when they do, and we come to an agreement, zip, it goes to zero. 
Jean : It goes to zero? (Laughter) Then you can actually send a copy of that Contract to the District Director and get a 
"FEDERAL TAX LIEN" put on it? (Roger - Sure) for the amount of the contract. 
Roger : Yeah. You just request that he do it. . That he place the FEDERAL TAX LIEN.
Jean : On what grounds?
Roger : I don't care. Because I tell him to do it, that's why. He's an "Employee", and I'm the "Employer".
Jean : And you give him your "Employer number" (designate your Social Security number as "Employer")
Roger : He can't call me into question. I am the Boss. No, I wouldn't call him that, because the Boss is the "Straw Boss". He
only has authority here, from the "Employer" and the Internal Revenue only recognizes two kinds of people, those that 
are "Employer" and those that are "Employee". 
Dave : All of which are fictional entities. 
Roger : Yeah. 
Jean : "Straw Men", aren't they?
Roger : Yeah, but they don't have to be "Straw". They can be a "charge", like a mirror image.
Jean : So, that just represents the "Straw Man"?
Roger : Yeah.
Dave : It is an appearance. 
Roger : Yeah. There are other abstracts here, but that should give you a basis to figure out how to do your "Purchase Orders".
Jean : Well, thank you very much for sharing this with us. Would you write that into the Contract?- "Purchase Orders" - A 
"Firm Offer", or just tell them verbally?
Roger : Well, you can TELL them, but if you run into a salesman who is maybe un-cooperative or something, you just tell him, 
"This will be something that they will take care of in the back room". With your accountants. You won't mind then if 
we just write it into the Contract here. If you can;t get any clear agreement with them, then that's the way I would ask 
them to do it. 
Jean : Put it into the Contract?
Roger : Just write it into the Contract, that you will require a "Firm Offer" before you have to put the down payment on the 
Jean : It is unbelieveable....It is so simple, isn't it? What did God do, he made the simple to confound the Wise, right?
Roger : Remember this, - We can figure this out here to where it technically will work, but the practical matter of doing it. 
You see, the minute you get into these "contested areas" and start to get testy, or the Sales Rep. gets testy, and says, "I
have to take this to the back room, and get this guy's signature on it", and you think, "well, we have a pretty good deal 
here, and we've got a deal made". Well, the next thing your going to have that Accountant / Attorney, flying out of the 
back room, and he's going to start interrogating you. If that happens, then you better remember those "THREE 
Dave : 1. What's Your Name? 2. Do you have a claim? 3. Do you know of anyone else who does? 4. There being no Public 
business, goodbye /or "I request the Order of the Court  be Released to me". 
Roger : Because you've got them in a position where you don't have to say anything. Just tell them "do I have a 'Firm Offer' 
here, or do I not?"  If you don't give me the "Firm Offer", I am going to have to go to the State's Attorney, and you 
don't even need the Contract. You just go over there and signa Complaint at the Sheriff's Office. 
Jean : Then what?
Roger : Just tell them what happened. And put it down in writing. 
Dave : That they are peretrating a Fraud, selling something they don't have a right to sell, that they don't own. False 
Roger : That's right. They have represented it, and when you get in Court in front of a Judge, that knows how to read 
evidence, - You know what the first thing he is going to want to know?
Jean : What? 
Roger : "Where did you see the advertising?" The advertising is an "Offer". 
Dave : The Contract of Agreement?
Roger : And if you "Accept" the offer, BANG, that's the evidence, Boy.
Dave : Because you own the car the minute they say, "yes, i can sell it", and you say "I'll take the green one", - it's yours.

End of Transcript