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Credo Mutwa Reptilians


December 2, 2002 - Transcript of conversation with Roger Elvick
**    Good I caught you.
R:    Was that you who called a minute ago?
**    No.   I did call earlier today and the line was busy and when it rang just now I thought you left again.
R:    Well somebody just called and I couldn’t get the phone to work right.
**    Mmm…  lucky for me or I would of just heard more busy signals… chuckling.  Anyway did you get a chance to look over the bankruptcy book and what do you think?  Make a good workbook?
R:    Ooohh yes!  I used quiet a little of it.   In fact I think you’ve got some stuff from me on the way.  I thought you would have had it already.
**    My mail hasn’t got her for today so I’ll check it later.  Maybe holiday time slows things down.
R:    I just printed up some stuff and I mailed out …   anyway just watch your mail and if not I’ll fax it to you.
**    Okay!  Now I have another question.  This gal and actually this could be for many in prison or locked up.  They’ve written to the judges and asked for the findings of facts and conclusions of law pertaining to their case.  Now they both have a bit of a difference in what took place at their trials.  One, F*H* accepted everything and returned it and then this gal, she plead innocent but the jury found her guilty.  Now they have written to the judge and asked for the findings of facts and conclusions of law and both of them received letters from the judge saying something to the effect of you need to get them from you counselor and the other said that she had to talk to the appeal attorney.  The question is, can they still do this while in prison and do chapter 11 reorganization and just accept everything in the case?  
R:    You bet because it comes from him.  He now has authorized discovery of his personal assets because what he’s doing is he’s passing on an assessment.  
**    Oh the judge is just passing it on….??
R:    You bet he is!  He’s participating in it and his failure now authorizes discovery of his personal assets and she can warn him of that of her intention of pursuing that by the Administrative Act in chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings.  
**    Now the administrative procedures act, is that title 5?
R:    Yeah I think so.    I’ve just been watching R* apply the Administrative Act in a lot of the stuff he’s doing.  I just never looked to see where he was drawing it from.   It’s very interesting because in the administrative act I’ve heard him comment on it and they have from time to time exhausted administrative remedy.  And in doing that they are then eligible to take their bills to the Federal Window for discount.  He’s gotten satisfaction on some.
**    Oohhh.  That’s wonderful.  He’s been saving some farms from foreclosure isn’t that how he’s using it?
R:    Well some of it.  It was based on…. Yeah, foreclosures and using bankruptcies to hold them off.
**    I’m just wondering if we should be a little more in the know about this chapter 11 and not get too secure with thinking that the notice of intent will make them honorable.   I think some of them are just standing with an attitude of go ahead and file.  We know we can handle the courts with their smug attitude.
R:    Humhum…
**    Another thing I’m suppose to bring to your attention is that J* faxed you something.
R:    I got it.
**    Does it look like the right maneuvers?   I know she faxed me a copy also and I think it looks good.  It came out of previous conversations that she put together for going to court.  
R:    I think she’ll be okay with that.  One thing that we’re finding, some of them that have let these fly, even the Marshal’s service starts to kick back and say, “We can’t do this or that.”  
**    That’s exactly what they told her.  I talked to her this morning and she had just called the marshals and they told her, “No we have to have a court order number to be able to serve it.”
R:    Well sure a court number, but you see, all these cases that we got railroaded on and went to prison years ago?…
**    Humhum…
R:    That’s good enough.   The case number and then just take the judgment, the judge has signed it and attach it.
**    Okay good.  That’s kind of what I thought also.
R:    Then send the Marshals in to seize… to seize the voucher.  
**    Did you get a chance to talk to J*?
R:    No.
**    Okay what happened to her was she bought 2 pick up trucks from the same dealer and she took the one to her son in another state then about a week later when she came back there was a message on her machine that the check didn’t clear and she was to bring the truck back or bring them a cashiers check or cash.  Now they were just going after the one truck, nothing was mentioned about the other one.   Well she faxed them an acceptance of their dishonor and requested the voucher and I think they called her and told her that they were going to turn this over to the police.   Well they did and it didn’t take them long before a whole SWAT team was there to arrest her.  She asked for the warrant and they told her they were authorized to arrest her and she asked for their identification and they showed her the badge and said that was all they were going to show her.  She did go before the judge and when she asked him the questions and she got to the, “Do you have a claim against me?” and the judge said, “Yes” it shocked her so she couldn’t remember what to do next.  I told her she should of said, “Then where is your check?”  
R:    Yeah!   What’d you do with the money Judge?
**    Anyway she thinks she may have blown it because her husband bailed her out and she has to be back for court on Friday.
R:    Right!  Ask that judge, “What kind of criminal enterprise did you invest in?”  chuckling
**    Exactly!   Oh we had another guy that got before the judge and got stage freight and couldn’t utter a word.  I think the court thought he was standing mute and gave him 90 days.
R:    Whoa!  One of the boys up in Canada who’s been in for a few days but they’ve been just wailing on him but he’s stood his own and is insisting on the voucher….and where’s your check and the judge started some of that stuff you just talked about with J*.  And he said, “Well where is your check?”  And they come screaming and hollering, “Well there just isn’t any.” And he’ll tell them, “Then you don’t have any consideration.   Where’s the check?”  See I can see where they think they can just scream and holler and brow beat them to where they think they finally get some breakthrough and then they wrap everything up.   They haven’t been able to do it with him.   
**    I know, when I was trying to do a title 42 and I was like a one note Tillie because I really didn’t know what I was doing so I just focused on “They broke down my door, pointed a gun at me and they didn’t have a warrant.”   The judge kept trying to question me and I would just repeat myself and wouldn’t answer me because he didn’t address what I was saying.  His jaw was so taunt it almost distorted his face.   When I finally did say something to the effect that the bank didn’t loan me any money, he commented and said something like he was glad he wasn’t going to have any part of that.   Course that didn’t save my house but …
R:    Well we probably aren’t so far away from that.  Once we break these boys on that voucher because people are starting to focus hard on it.  They’re going to be hard pressed.  I have an idea that this home rule thing is liable to clean up on them in those areas.
**    Oh you mean the Homeland Security?
R:    Yea…
**    Oh I listen to talk radio and they are talking about how we are loosing all our privacy and freedom and how if we’re at war how come our borders are still open and they are catering to foreigners.  It’s the citizens that are being threatened.
R:    Ummhum but then…. We’re foreign.  To them – the public.
**    Okay.  That’s true.  
R:    But you see the reason I happen to think that way cause there was a lady on the news today who is the head of the Environmental Protection Agency.  Katie was quizzing her on the news stating that she had some criticism of her on the job but she was talking about them starting to press them clean up all these public energy agencies.   To make them clean up these coal fires because they’re running up the pollution and the pollution standards have to be meet.   And they’re going to make them meet it.  
**    I thought George Bush was going to try to loosen or lower the pollution standards?  They were talking about that for manufacturing and also for the wetlands.
R:    Well whatever they were talking about loosening they aren’t loosening up that particular area of if.    This is just the emission from the electric producing plants.  She said they’ll have to be met.  When I began seeing and listened to what she was stating that whatever these agencies are doing is they are all competing against each other and then they try to hide any idea they are polluting.   So they can continue to buy their cheap power.  Well it’s corruption and that’s what all the energy is about… is corruption and it takes the real principal to take the corruption out of circulation.  In other words the redeeming of the debt.   And that has to do with the bringing this energy to neutral.  
**    To neutralize… okay.
R:    And to neutralize the toxic effect and it has to be done financially and when it’s not and there is no redemption and they keep circulating this debt, I think that’s why they keep calling it the greenhouse effect and everything because even though it goes up and of course when they bring in energy they way they have the energy that is produced…  Well when energy is converted to heat… then you see when energy is in the form of heat you can’t weigh it in gravity, so the state looses jurisdiction.   The state can’t weigh it so now it has to be identified by charges.  By an electronic microscope.   It has to be a charge microscope.  See so there is where the separation occurs.   It occurs and that is why they’ve been importing all of this energy because then the state looses the jurisdiction and that’s what we’re trying to do.  We’re trying to bring these people accountable in fact.
**    So if they can’t weigh it or measure it they are not really able to assess?
R:    Right.
**    But they’re still bringing on charges when they can’t assess?
R:    Sure!  They’re assuming them.  That’s why they assume the charges.  But you see we’re holding that these guys don’t have any charges because they can’t prove the fact.  
**    Okay!  Well also when they don’t give you a check they’re also bankrupt aren’t they?
R:    Right!  They can’t prove the fact.    Okay even if they gave me a check I’d still want to go see if I can cash it.  
**    Right!  When they say, “What kind of check are you talking about?”  You say, “preferably cashiers.”    Chuckling  “Otherwise I’ll have to go cash it to make sure you’re solvent.”
R:    Yeah!
**    So how is your mouth?  Is it all healed?   (had some extensive dental surgery so mouth was packed and couldn’t talk for awhile)
     Chit chat about dental etc.

**    So the stuff that you sent to me is about the chapter 11?   
R:    Yeah I think there are about 6 pages.  Then there is that 2 page letter I think I sent you before was part of that.  Then the other part of it was I took some of the steps out of that bankruptcy book and that’s in there.  Then there were 5 or 6 pages on how to fill out the USM 285.  Then of course there is a writ of execution with that.  
**    Good that was some of my questions were about that writ and the instructions.
R:    Well that should be forth coming.  If you don’t get that you let me know pretty soon then maybe I could just fax it or something.   Make sure that you get it because that shows how to fill out the Marshal form but then the Writ of Execution on that Marshal form there I think what Wally P is doing.  He dumped about 3 of them in the mail today.  With that we’re using the Writ of Execution to instruct the marshals to seize the voucher.  
**    Okay.  Good.
R:    It’s a seizure….  
**    The Marshals do say they will do this and then bill.  I thought that was good because if they’ll do that then that bill could just be submitted right into the bankruptcy court and get paid that way.
R:    We don’t want it billed though.  We want them to charge the debtor.
**    Right but wouldn’t that be charged to the debtor in bankruptcy?
R:    Well it’s just going to be charged to the debtor right when the Marshal picks up the account.  And of course I’m still coming from the idea that we may not actually have to even file that bankruptcy petition if we can get rid of some of this preliminary process to work.  
**    Right.  We need to get it positioned right so they know we are serious without having to file to show how serious we are.   They actually do challenge us to see how far we will take it I think and because so many are operating with confusion I can see why they are doing this.  
R:    See what we’re doing here is we’re using some old cases.  In other words the case that they sent me to prison on.  I just signed orders there.   We’ll use those and attach any order that the judge has his signature on…  I’ll just attach in on the Marshal form and tell them seize the voucher.  
**    So like what you’re doing, like that guy, the district attorney, that had you arrested and he’s the one that is suppose to be minding your property for you now, so you’re going to of course put him on there so he’s going to have to surrender all those properties to you?
R:    Oh yeah!   And the voucher for the claim in the background for all the finances you see.  And if he doesn’t do it and if the Marshal Service even tries to weasel out on it we’re just simple going to tell them, “Well if you fail to do it, then I want the name of the registered agent in your organization that is refusing to do this or otherwise failing”.  They’re probably failing because of bankruptcy--because of insolvency.  But you see we’re just going to tell them then that we will then request the Secretary of State to charge you by information.   
**    Okay?
R:    Okay and to charge the fee for the filing of the UCC 11….  Well it would be a 3 for you I guess.
**    Well the form 11 is for providing information or requesting information.
R:    The thing is, when we request the Sec of State to charge the fee for the filing and then after filing then to send it on to the person charged.  
**    Oh just like when FTB did a release with the County Recorder and now they are back on me.  And like you said go after them on the voucher so they are going to be my number one culprit going on my Chapter 11 reorganization.
R:    Yes!  Now here is the other thing.  If we can’t get by doing all this preliminary before actually filing the chapter 11… Now when we file our plan.  (** - right)  Our plan is going to systematically make settlement with each creditor one by one, so that they can’t use the “mob rule” to disrupt the actual settlement.   So you see if they refuse the plan, then they’ve authorized the discovery of their personal property.  
**    Are you talking about like if the judge…
R:    Anybody!  I don’t care who it is.  
**    Oh Okay!
R:    Now you’re getting the idea.  We’re going to single them out so they can not bring a mob rule and we may even want to put memorandum along with the plan for the reasons as to why the plan is being issued this way and the memorandum can explain the reason that the committees and one thing and another are only public method of allowing racketeering to occur and bring the legitimate business into mob rule.  
**    Yeah one of there loopholes.
R:    Yeah which then opens the door for all the parasites of the bureaucratic employ…. To loot and plunder the property.   In this case this is not going to happen.  The debtor is going to pay all the creditors.  Why?  So that the creditors can settle 100%.  That means the set-off.  
**    So the debtor is going to pay using our acceptance?
R:    Right!  Our set-off (closed account).  We’ll exercise the set-off for consideration to all of the creditors to enable them to surrender the assets to the owner.  
**    Sounds good.  So you’ve got this pretty much structured on how you’re going to do the 11?
R:    Yeah sort of.  We’ve got to wait and see how some of this pans out because Wally is moving on them.  He has taken judgments from his previous bankruptcies and stuff in the previous foreclosure.  He’s taking the foreclosure order and using that.  
**    Oh this is wonderful.  This stimulates a lot of hope.
R:    You see because the Marshal says they are not going to act, you see in one case, I don’t remember if it was Wally or somebody else told me today, they said that they would act but the fee must be pre-paid.  
**    Humhumm…  that’s what we do.
R:    Right.  Set-off is prepayment.  So see that’s what the Marshal is going to do.   But you see we’re going to attach the judges signed order in a particular case.  It doesn’t have to be a final order.   Just the judges signature on it and that’s an execution and this is an answer you see.
**    You know, sometimes what they do is they send out the order but they don’t sign it they may just stamp the Judges name on it… course I guess that is still the equivalent.   I’m trying to remember back thinking that I got those minute orders from the court and the Judges signature wasn’t on it.
R:    Okay in that case we’ll then request the original.  We’ll request the original order from the judicial file.   The one in the administrative file is not a commercial instrument capable of collection.  It’s a copy… it’s negative.  It’s the original order that’s lying in the judicial file or the order may not even be there.  It just might be assumed.  
**    Right.  I think I told you about this guy over in Hawaii that went to court and he asked the judge for the finding of facts and conclusions of law so he could plea and the judge told him right there during the public hearing that he doesn’t do that.   That was a pretty bold admission.
R:    That’s the time when he should of said, “Well then Judge you have authorized discovery of your personal assets.”…  And the other thing some of these judges don’t like to be asked outright, “Well Judge, what did you do with the money?”  “What did you invest it in?”   Laughter
**    Oh this is what is happening to the group in Idaho.  They’ve been all over the news, TV and newspapers for writing checks to Costco over in Washington… as if Costco was going to go broke, and there was something in the papers that they saw from the DA that the accountant contacted the corporate office about it and they didn’t get back to her so she just turned it over to the police.  When these guys faxed their acceptance to Costco the CEO at Costco denied having anything to do with it and didn’t know anything about any claims.  Now I guess it is up to the prosecutor to be the one making the claims.
R:    Yea!  Where are the checks?  Where are the vouchers?  What did you do with them?  
**    When you’re asking for the checks and the vouchers or the checks OR the vouchers?
R:    All of them!
**    So you want all of them!   The check is basically the bond and the voucher is basically for the funds that they’ve already used it?
R:    Well see the voucher is the one that goes to Freddie Mac.
**    Well not in all cases, they are only there for home loans – housing.
R:    Okay then whatever federal paper cause in some federal paper they write their check in exchange for the voucher.
**    That would make sense.  You know C* the shopper, has been doing a lot of investigating at the County Recorder and what she found under the name of her congressman was thousands of reconveyances and even banks that reconveyed properties.
R:    Okay well they’re using that to finance all their political corruption.  
**    It looks like even though these banks have different names they really are only one bank.  That GE Capitol that is attacking E* that is also Wells Fargo they are Golden Empire.  What a tangled web they weave.    Somewhere in there is Norwest and a bunch of others.
R:    Yeah well I happen to know that Norwest came from this part of the country.  
**    Well I think C* found an address for all these companies back in Baltimore, MD.
R:    I think it was back in 1996 was when I took a US tender offer and filled it out.  It goes up to a million dollars….   I think you’re familiar with what I’m talking about…. Anyway I applied for one of these when I was in prison.
**    Are you talking about when you got the OID that you applied for a construction job or something like that… when you were making a bid.  You talking about getting a 1099 OID?
R:    Yeah… that’s it.  Well they marked it Original Issue and dated it and sent it back to me with a rejection notice.   (this information is in the Jan 2001 transcripts at the last part)   Rejection notice for why?  Why because I didn’t send a check with it.  So now you see that is recognized as a non-competitive bid.  Okay so now all I need to do is get the competitive bid so I sent it into the bank and told them that I wanted to deposit this and I wanted a CD in my name and for them to issue their check.  Because now my non-competitive bid makes the banks check good at the treasury.   At the Federal Reserve Bank.  So now that million dollar deposit should be there.   Well they just grabbed it see and they never did anything with it so then what I did was I wrote to the holding company of the bank which was in Minneapolis and I told them that because there was this particular problem there and they don’t provide me with the deposit and access to the use of those funds then you see that bank has surrendered to me.  I’m the owner to all of the stock of Norwest Bank and holding company.    Well guess what happened?
**     What?
R:    About a month after I did this, when I sent that notice to the bank in Minneapolis, of course I had copies of what I had done, I sent along copies of the correspondence with the bank up here in Morehead…
**    Oh is that when you went in one door and the bank manager took off out the back door?
R:    No! No! No!    That was later on when I got out of prison.   
**    Oh so you were doing all this in prison?
R:    This is while I was in prison you see.  When I wrote that letter to the holding company in Minneapolis I’m reading about an account in the Minneapolis Tribune about a month later and it’s writing about the CEO from Norwest Holding Co. and that holding company owns about 90 banks at the time.  That CEO had disappeared… mysteriously, okay.  Then there wasn’t anything more said about it.  It told what capacity he worked in, in the bank and bla bla bla.   Well then, maybe about six weeks later or something like that, another article appears but it’s a big one, you know?  It covers a big part of the page.  It’s telling about that they located this fellow.  First of all it told a preliminary about how he disappeared on these dates and bla bla bla and since that time he had been located working in a mortgage company in California.  Okay?
**    Okay
R:    They when he was asked he declined to comment anymore then to say when he was asked why he had left his post he commented he left for business and personal reasons.  
**    That covers a lot of ground.
R:    Well that was it and but he declined to comment any further.  So then they went on and told about his job and how the company was working and how it was structured and everything and how it was operating without him there.   Okay so now this is the CEO that disappeared.  The reason he had to leave is because the CEO assumes to be the preferred stockholder.
**    Oh a little off point but I was reading this old Magna Charta book and I was surprised to see that all the royalty way back to BC was listed in that book as the Sureties for like Scotland and Ireland.  It was giving this lineage and I was thinking out Jesus is our Surety….  
R:    Okay…
**    Did you know that?
R:    No.   
**    Sorry… I didn’t mean to interrupt.
R:    Yeah and they are the nobles now.   Well any way what happens is he disappears and when they gave a description of how the Holding Company was operating now, you see they never did install a CEO again.  
**    Was that to side step their responsibility?
R:    Well how were they running… the one that was running the day to day operations of the bank holding company was now the Chairman of the Board.  Why?  Because he has to represent the stock holders.  But the CEO you see, he was the one that assumed he was holding the preferred stock.    
**    Interesting.
R:    That’s when they assumed the duties.  He couldn’t assume them anymore because when I jumped him I now told them that as long as you fellows are not going to honor my deposit in there I am the owner of all the stock in the entire holding company.  
**    OOHH and you can still make claim on that now?
R:    Oh YEAH!  Yeah once the bankruptcy gets in place.  Once I move into there I’ll move on them.   See something else interesting happened this weekend.  A friend and I were out and we stopped at this coffee shop to have a bit and by golly I ran into my old PO in there.  She’s about my age, there abouts.
**    She was nice and you got along with her right?
R:    Oh yeah!  Her and I got along and my friend had known her for a long time and we almost didn’t recognize her because she wasn’t dressed professionally she just had on knock around clothes you know?
**    Umhumm
R:    Anyway I had a word with her.  I said, “I’m going to have to come in and see you.  I’ve got some things that we’re going to be getting under way here pretty soon.”  
**    I’ll bet that made her happy!
R:    Oh she doesn’t mind.  She can play hardball because she is and has been the senior probation officer from here for probably 30 years as far as I know.  She’s been in there at least that long maybe longer.   So she’s been through the good and the bad.  If I decide to name her and I’m going to talk about it and I’m going to ask her if she’s got any other suggestion otherwise I’ll have to name her and when I want to bring the US judgment down.  Either that or I’ll go after the district judge.  You know?  I’ll name him in there but I’m going to ask her, what she wants to recommend.   I just want to make sure my loop is big enough to take in all of my property, see?  I don’t want to be running all over the country to look for everybody and I’m not going to allow the US Marshal service to make a gangland circus out of the bankruptcy.  See I’m going to take them one at a time.  
**    From what I understand you don’t have to put that much information into the bankruptcy.  
R:    No!  No!
**    I think this is much easier then trying to file and do a court case or lawsuit.
R:    And if you put it in your plan that you’ll settle with each one of your creditors one by one and make sure that your plan is incorporated as such then you see they aren’t going to be able to go around it.  
**    Oh gawd I can’t wait to get the papers you sent…
R:    Well those papers aren’t quite into that.
**    I don’t even have the book yet.  I just sort of perused it and sent it off to you and ordered some others on the same day.  About a week or so later I get the order back that the place closed and didn’t have a forwarding address so I ended up finding it on the internet so I did make contact to get some.
R:    So you don’t have them yet?
**    No and I’m getting anxious and I know others are getting anxious and we’re just sort of holding off.   I did order 28 of them for the groups around here.   I told the guy we’d probably be ordering more and he said he had 2 cases.  I said he may need more then that so get ready to get more made up.
R:    Yeah I think so.
**    I think more and more people are starting to jump on the bandwagon and they get in a rush and think that chapter 13 is going to help them accomplish the same thing so I typed up and circulated Chapter 11 versus chapter 13.  
R:    Well you see the 13 we don’t need to have anything to do with any of those because the chapter 11 is the corporate sole and the reason to do it the way we’re doing it isn’t so much the rationale that this is for personal and this is for business cause we have to get a voluntary agreement and you see we weren’t getting anywhere with the idea of pressing them for involuntary bankruptcy.  
**    Right even though this is still a side door into liquidating them.  It is putting them into involuntary bankruptcy in a way.
R:    Yeah!  But you see what we’re doing is it’s a voluntary petition, why?  Because it’s corporate.  And you see we are part of the corporate sole.
**    Right.
R:    Chapter 11 … you doggone right because our straw man here is a warrant of the corporate world.  
**    That’s right because the number is issued to us for commerce…. To our straw man name.
R:    That’s what we’re doing.  We’re pleading the straw man is bankrupt and we are the officer or we are the reps.  
**    Right…  the bank declares it right there on the signature line.   Was it you that told me that if you just sign By:__  and that is the same as Authorized Representative or Attorney in Fact?   Cause it does say that in the dictionary too.  
R:    Yeah!  Yeah!  Yea!  That would be sufficient.  You see when you file the actual bankruptcy, if you should happen to have to do it…. We may have to do it, I’m not 100% sure yet, but I’m saying that after the petition is filed there isn’t really nothing that has to be done for about 90 days and it could be, I see in there 120 days.   And the 120 days we can put other stuff in there stating in there our bankruptcy plan that we will take each creditor will be settled with 100%.
**    Wasn’t there something in there that they have to approve your plan?
R:    Oh yeah but you see if they want to disprove it, why they don’t have a claim.  
**    No it’s not them that does it, it’s the bankruptcy court, the trustees of the bankruptcy are the ones…
R:    Guess who that is?
**    Who?
R:    Debtor in possession!
**    Oh!  No kidding?  Guess I don’t know enough about this to even ask dumb questions.  
R:    If you start reading through step 5, 6, 7, 8, etc.
**    Yeah.  I didn’t even get a chance.  I just typed up the excerpts out of the table of contents and figured the books would looked like it would simplify what we needed to do.    
                          Tape turn and may have lost some
**    If the offer is good so obviously the offer wasn’t any good.
R:    Yeah a set off cannot be any more or less then what it is set off from.    See it can’t be more or less then what the set off was because when you set-off now you see there can’t be any additions or subtractions from credits or the debits.   It’s an accrual.  The only thing that can accrue is what was there in the first place, so you see if you are declaring that you didn’t get paid or that the check was not good…  “ then sir you are declaring there was fraud on the offer to start with because the check was given in good faith.”
**    Okay.  That makes sense.  That can actually be written right in a letter…  That’s good letter material.    I’m still dealing with that US Bank regarding those checks that they told me were good then later subtracted them from my account and caused a couple of checks to bounce of mine and are now trying to charge me check charges based on that.   I’m working on a letter but lately haven’t had a chance to think through …
R:    See whoever gets charged has to accept because it’s when they don’t accept is when they get themselves into trouble.  
**    This is when they told me the checks had all cleared and I used the funds, then they came back on me and I was thinking of endorsing it over to the bank and tell them to collect on it and charge my account.  Now they show my account as minus $24.00 for check charges.  
R:    Well the check that came back to you, did they punch it?  
**    Oh yeah.  It was written on one of those credit card checks.  You know when the credit card companies want you to charge more and some places that don’t have set up for credit card they can give them a check.  
R:    Okay so it’s punched.?  I don’t think I would give them the check.  I’d just keep that as proof of payment.   And on that $24.00 just write to them and ask them for the voucher to prove their claim in fact.  Without the voucher they can’t prove their claim as a matter of fact.
**    Oh!  Okay what I was going to do is write them a check right out of that same account they are charging.  But see the credit card check was almost $5,000. so they’re the ones that told me the check was good and then they reneged causing me injury when they are the ones that are suppose to be working for me.  I was going to take this to small claims court.  What do you think that would do against me?
R:    Well if you were going to go to all that trouble.  You were going to give them one of their checks?
**    Right for the $24.00 but that doesn’t solve my problem of the $5,000 check that caused me injury.   She told me it was that credit card company that or that persons bank that wouldn’t approve it.
Then the other one said REFER TO MAKER so the bank manager said, “Well their bank did that.”  I told her that I know it was the clearing house that these checks go to so it is no my error by THEIR error and she is trying to hold my account as the surety.
R:    See everything that they did they did it in their bank but they call it ‘your’ bank.  See that’s what they’re doing.
**    That’s exactly what they’re doing.  She goes well we didn’t stamp this on there.  I said, “well you may not have but it was still part of your affiliation….  It isn’t me.  Anyway she kept trying to make it all my responsibility.  
R:    Well don’t even get into that.  See what I do is I say, “Well you’re the holder of my account aren’t you?   Then tell her, “Don’t you follow instructions form the people you work for?”  Anyway just tell her issue my check from my account cause what it is, is an interoffice accrual that they have failed with.  
**    Okay if they’re the holder of my account which is a minus $24.00.
R:    Yeah they’re the holder of the account.  You just tell them to go ahead to pay whatever the difference is.  In other words she’s talking about a public account.  Now personally you’re telling her to take it from private account side of what you’re holding.  Just move it over.  I’m authorizing you to do that.  
**    In other words instruct them to make that adjustment.  Yes I know they can waive those fees.
R:    And if they don’t do it then just tell them, well when I send the marshals in to seize the voucher they’re going to be authorized by your decisions to also seize your personal property.  So that’s probably what’s going to happen.   By the time I get around to getting the US Marshals to act on the case, when I get the matter filed with the bankruptcy.
**    So I should not really do anything with that $5,000 or should that be the guy that gave me the check?  See his credit card company didn’t clear it.  Who should go after that?
R:    So the credit card check was drawn on who?
**    It was drawn on his credit card payable to me.
R:    Yeah but when they give you those checks the card company should stand good for those.
**    Then the bank should make the card company stand good?
R:    Yeah!
**    Okay so that’s why I was thinking that I wanted to take it back and make the bank go collect it and charge my account.
R:    Yeah and tell them that is credit card company otherwise you wouldn’t of taken it if it would have been an individual check.   Just tell them the credit card company has reneged on it and that’s corp.   You know what the problem here is?  Is that the credit cards are dealing with M2 money and they are trying to collect it in M1.
**    M2 again… I forgot.  
R:    Well M2 just has no status in bankruptcy.    
**    Okay!  Unsecured.
R:    Yeah it’s all unsecured which they’re attempting to convert to M1 when it is only M2.  Then what we’re doing with the contract is you’re actually legislating law administratively.  
**    Right because they’re doing it for your behalf.
R:    Yeah but you see what we do when we enter into contract we’re doing it.  We are declaring the law because when they make and offer and we accept it, that’s the law right there!  That has the binding agreements.   
**    Okay  so that solidifies their public offering is now been accepted….
R:    Now the statutes and ordinances don’t apply you see because it’s a private agreement….   See we have fulfilled the law.
**    Oh I like that.   Gosh I guess I better let you go.   Let me check over my list on who needs questions.  E* is working on her letter to go to the judge, A* has received letters back from the judge saying the facts will have to be obtained from the appeals attorney, that also works for F* because they told him something similar like his would be with his representative.  I don’t think it’s a PO but a councilor or something…
R:    Yeah.  
**    Now A* is in a camp versus in the cells and she got 17 ½ year and is afraid they will put her back in the cells or make life more difficult for her.    Now should she use that attorney or get rid of her or what?  
R:    Well what she does… if you’re going to have an attorney you give them specific instructions what he can do and what he can’t.  Make sure there is no room for him to do anything other then what you told him to do.  That’s the only way you can use them.  
**    Okay so she needs to really understand this in order to give them instructions.
R:    Right and if they refuse then he’s giving her cause to name him in bankruptcy.  
**    So then she could actually fire them?
R:    Yeah but see you’re not firing them you don’t get into that, because that is an agreement.  
**    Got it.   And we got the answer that prisons can in fact file and do Chapter 11.   I’m getting a lot of letters from people in prison and I’m not sure I know how or have time to answer everyone.  What I’ve been doing is just send them some transcripts and it is up to them to learn the tools in them.  I know a couple have asked if they can do Chapter 11 from prison or if they have to get an attorney to do it so I’ll know how to answer that.
R:    Well they just have to make sure that whenever they make claims on any of us, that for them to make the claim, we can accept it but where is the check or the voucher, you see and what it is, it’s a matter of them tampering and toying with the evidence.  That is just like the Marshals saying we can’t serve that unless we have a court order and bla bla bla.   Well we’re narrowing the gate on that of course.   But that’s the area where they have to focus because it has the area of you getting the evidence and I don’t know if we can describe very easy now as to how these people have to view evidence.  That’s the difference from us taking them into chapter 11 because it’s a voluntary petition and you see whenever you have a creditor who makes a claim on you, you see that is the offer and you accept.  See now we’re going to settle with all these creditors 100%.  So we do that one here with set-off.   Where everybody goes wrong is because usually when a debtor files, everyone assumes the debtor is admitting bankruptcy.  The debtor isn’t bankrupt, we’re just reorganizing the debtor.  It’s the creditors that are bankrupt.
**    Now see there was something in that book that also said that the debtor in possession that usually if you’re in possession you can’t make a claim.  
R:    Okay see it is the creditors who has made the claim, okay?
**    Okay!
R:    So we have agreed in the plan that we will pay the creditor… 100%.  All secured and unsecured claims.  Okay 100%.  So you see a lot of times what these realtors and who ever that are foreclosing on people what they do is they move immediately for removal of the stay.
**    Right!
R:    Right but that’s the stay against liquidating the property held by the creditor.  Okay?
**    Okay!
R:    Well we’re going move for liquidation.  Why?  Because it’s debtor in possession.  It’s not trustee in possession.  
**    Right but what if you don’t have possession of the item?
R:    Well it’s still constructive possession.  
**    Oh because you’ve accepted it?
R:    Yeah!  Because why?  The debtor is assumed to be an employee until he does something to show that he’s not working for you and then he’s in possession of contraband.  We want you to surrender the property then.  
**    You mean the creditor surrender the property then.
R:    Yeah we’re going to request liquidation in the dropping of the stay.  WE are going to move for the removal of the stay.  
**    Wonderful!  We as the debtor in possession?
R:    In your plan you want to state in your plan we’re going to do it with each creditor one at a time and you see they can’t argue.  See if they don’t want to accept the plan then you see then they don’t want to be paid either and they surrender the property right now.  
**    Oh they’re caught in a catch 22.  (chuckles)
R:    Damn right they are!    See they tried to put us in there, but see now when you start as a matter of evidence we have to be able to bind them to the evidence.   When you bring a contrary involuntary action on them see then you don’t get both sides into evidence.  You have to have evidence in these cases of contract by agreement.   So you see whenever the creditor makes his claim we then will pay 100% or what we do is we request settlement.  In the event they don’t settle by set-off and surrendering the assets then they have authorized the discovery of their personal property.  But you see you have to approach it that way to be able to hold the evidence together.  
**    I can see that.
R:    Okay yeah and that’s what people don’t understand.   So we are actually going to move and request that the marshals when they move after the creditors property they’re going to liquidate.  We’re going to put a motion to removal of the request for the stay and that the marshal then request the voucher to prove the claim.  See we’re not going to say, “No we’re not disputing the creditors claim to be paid, we just request that the creditor provide us with the voucher to prove the claim.”  In the even that he fails to do that the court marshal in our plan will elect for the court to remove the stay and instruct the marshal to liquidate all the personal property of this person until settlement is obtained.
**    Perfect and when you do it one at a time it won’t be so hard on us either.
R:    Right and that’s what you’re going to state right in the plan and that’s to prevent the MOB RULE of gang land action.
**    You can be in Chapter 11 for a long time.
R:    Oh yeah… we’ll be in there forever.   I think when that starts you’ll be able to see it.
**    This conversation cleared up a lot of little incidents.   Also when I get bombarded by a lot of little questions my brain locks up.
R:    See a lot of their questions are narrowed because they’re narrowing it for what they want to see as an answer and the answer may not be correct for what they’re wanting.
**    Right and not only that they are so steeped in the laws that many are still looking for some book to give them permission to be the principal.   When you even start reading the law dictionary pretty soon I start thinking they’re over me.   I’m back to thinking I’m a commoner.    Chuckles
R:    Okay here I’m looking at the Marshals form.  It say’s here:  Serve at:  where you put the name of the individual to be served.  It says:  Name of individual, company, corporation, etc to serve or description of property to seize or condemn.   Now that’s what that form is for.  So you see if they’re going to condemn then that’s a public condemnation.    But to seize is private.  
**    Didn’t know that.   Couldn’t we have the sheriff seize things?
R:    Well I think we need to stick with the Marshal on this.  
**    Boy I was really surprised on how fast they had the sheriff and local cops to seize the vehicles that J* bought.   Actually it wasn’t the Sheriff it was the state troopers and local cops.
R:    Oohhh…  So they didn’t have any sheriff….    Well she’s dealing with the subject matter.  See those are municipal funds and those are municipal officers.  Municipal along with the state but see now she has to bring the state in on those and that means the bankruptcy.   Does she have a federal action? **    I don’t think so at this time.   I know she is thinking she has got to move pretty fast on this Chapter 11.
R:    Well you take that 11 and from what I see, there’s a minimum of 90 days they can’t mess with you prior to that…
**    She’s got to go to court Friday, but she bonded out cause they took her to jail the day the seized the vehicles.        She sort of lost it when she got caught off guard when the judge said he had a claim against her.  She didn’t think of saying, “Well then where is your check?”  She commented something like “she requested the order of the court be released to her” and the judge told the bailiff to get her out of there.  He said something like, “Here are your choices, jail until the trial or you can bond out for X amount so her husband bonded her out.
R:    Okay…  Well if he said he’s got a claim then she’s got to start leaning on him with the ideas we’ve been discussing here and get familiar with the chapter 11 bankruptcies.
**    Well this information loaded my brain down for awhile.
R:    Oh yeah.  Well somebody is going to score on these boys.  There’s a bunch of them going out now.  There’s a lady out in Illinois and she’s moved on them already.
**    Is that the lady that bought the jeep?
R:    Yeah.   
**    Shucks I was hoping that she was going to be able to keep it.  She hung in there pretty good.
R:    Well we’re getting it down.  Most of it’s the evidence that we’re lacking and it’s in the bankruptcy arena where I think that we can control it because you can bring that under the administrative procedures act.  You might want to look at that.  I think it may be title 5.  
**    I’m pretty sure it is.
R:    A lot of that also gets into Regulation Z and one thing or another and when we start to apply those, you see that’s when you can use those attorneys.  You know those attorneys that are in there you instruct them within those particular areas and don’t let them get out side of them.   People that use attorneys let them jerks slip around.  See that’s where the trouble comes from.  
**    Oh if you’re going to be there a day or too I’ll check out my mail today and tomorrow and if I haven’t received that in the next day or two I’ll call you and you can fax me that info.
R:    Okay….